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Poster: brewster Date: Dec 21, 2010 2:00pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful


:)

Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

By TOVIN LAPAN at 3:00am on Dec 21, 2010 ‹ Santa Cruz Sentinel Modified at 8:49am on Dec 21, 2010

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SANTA CRUZ, Calif. - Mention the word "vault" around Deadheads and they will likely daydream of colorful dancing bears and the series of live recordings released by the Grateful Dead that come "From the Vault" of the band's concert tapes.

Ask Republican Sen. Tom Coburn of Oklahoma about a vault, and he is likely to say that is where federal money belongs, safe from the wasteful spending of earmarks and frivolous government agencies.

Those two perspectives clashed Monday when Coburn's office released its annual oversight report on government spending, known as "Wastebook 2010: A Guide to Some of the Most Wasteful Government Spending of 2010." A $615,000 federal grant to University of California Santa Cruz to digitize the Grateful Dead archive was listed at No. 4 in the report that identifies 100 examples of "wasteful" spending.

"The No. 1 thing is that it is not a federal responsibility to archive the materials of a rock band," said John Hart, Coburn's director of communications. "If Santa Cruz wants to do that, they can digitize archives of anything they like with their money. The fact is we have a $14 trillion debt, and we are in danger of going into a far deeper recession. There are thousands of grants and projects like this around federal government."

The UCSC Grateful Dead Archive, announced in 2008, is an extensive collection of thousands of pictures, documents and pieces of memorabilia. The archive also contains band member journals, paraphernalia related to the band's extensive social network of devoted fans and the group's highly unusual and successful business ventures.

"The archive is of interest to a great deal of people," said Virginia Steel, UCSC librarian. "There is a lot of scholarly interest in the Grateful Dead, whether it's studying the significant role that they played in our culture and society, or their management and how they ran the business."

The grant from the federal Institute for Museum and Library Services was awarded to UCSC so they could use the Grateful Dead Archive to work on a new, innovative, "socially constructed" archiving system.

"The goal of the whole project is to advance archival practice," Steel said. "The goal is not the digitization of the Grateful Dead Archive, but to create a socially constructed archive which allows individuals access to material. Then people can help in the identification of materials and also upload their own relevant materials."

UCSC was one of 51 institutions nationwide that received National Leadership Grants from the IMLS this year totaling nearly $18 million. The UCSC archive initiative was given the special distinction of a "National Leadership Project" by the institute.

The IMLS is the primary source of federal support for the nation's 123,000 libraries and 17,500 museums, and has a stated mission to create strong libraries and museums that connect people to information and ideas.

Coburn is a champion of fiscal responsibility, opposing earmarks and unchecked government spending. Last week he voted against the new tax law and compromise on unemployment benefits, among other provisions, because his concerns over deficit spending were not adequately addressed.

A blog from the conservative think tank Heritage Foundation immediately picked up on the report Monday, posting a picture of a guitar-equipped Jerry Garcia next to its entry on wasteful spending, stating that "Baby Boomers" should pay for the digital archive "out of their own pockets."

Steel says the focus should be on the benefits of the new archiving system, and not the Grateful Dead project specifically.

"The digital archive will have significance in the way it changes how people can view the materials and interact with them," she said. "We are always trying to think about what's best for the public, and how to share the material. Whether it was digitized or not, the archive would be free and public. That is what a library at a public university does."


Read more: http://www.kentucky.com/2010/12/21/1575092/senator-calls-universitys-digital.html#more#ixzz18mR5NMS6

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Poster: RBNW....new and improved! Date: Dec 22, 2010 7:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

sure beats spending the money to deploy some young kid to the middle east to lose his life

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Poster: hasher Date: Dec 23, 2010 12:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

>>sure beats spending the money to deploy some young kid to the middle east to lose his life

Yep. And if you think about it the 600k wouldn't equal even one of the hundreds of helicopters produced each year to "combat terror". You Republicans will say we need to spend more than half of our budget on defense to protect our freedom. Call yourself a fiscal conservative all you want if that helps you sleep at night.

As an alumni of UCSC I can say that the school and other UCs get a lot more money from the government for things you don't want to know about. Still they raise tuition and admit more students while cutting classes and putting teachers on furloughs. The GD archive is not just giving the school both negetive and positive press, it's also diverting attention from the real issues plagueing the school and entire UC system.

A few years ago when the chancellor commited suicide and they printed all this stuff in the paper about how her personal life was a mess it really made me wonder what was really going on. This was a very intelligent person (that doesnt exempt her from doing stupid things of course) who was under attack for how the money was being spent among other things. I guess I just never bought the jilted lover story they pushed in the paper and thought just maybe she had developed a conscience about all the awful things her and the UC regents have been doing and getting away with over the years. I don't really know where I was going with that, this all just reminded me of it.

Anyway my point (one that's already been made in this thread a few times) is simply that there are far worse things to complain about than the 600k for the GD archive. If you think that a piddly 600k is a waste of money you haven't been paying attention to the real travesties our politicians continue to get away with on a daily basis.

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Poster: cousinkix1953 Date: Dec 21, 2010 6:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

"Mention the word "vault" around Deadheads and they will likely daydream of colorful dancing bears and the series of live recordings released by the Grateful Dead that come "From the Vault" of the band's concert tapes.

Ask Republican Sen. Tom Coburn of Oklahoma about a vault, and he is likely to say that is where federal money belongs, safe from the wasteful spending of earmarks and frivolous government agencies."

I hate to tell you that the UCSC music collection will never rival the Rhino vault or even the archive. Music isn't even the main focus of the new place. On the other hand, I can think of better things to do with $615 K. Heads have always been leary of government involvement in our affairs and the rules that come with taking those handouts. Funding should be private...


This post was modified by cousinkix1953 on 2010-12-22 02:01:22

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Dec 21, 2010 3:10pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

SHEESH! THAT comes in at number four? There's a great book from the 90's called take the Rich Off Welfare that is very interesting reading on corporate wlefare. Even 15 years ago there are FAR more egregious acts of waste than this.

Having said all that - I aint afraid to say I'm LIBERAl none of this progressive shit, LIBERAL but isn't this the type of thing the BAND should pay for? Or someone they contract with? I mean they're not charging for it and I'm sure they went through all the legal channels but I dunno. But hey there are a million dumb ass earmarks that cost us an S load more than this does so I'd hardly start with this so high. Where the hell are the audits and lawsuits against Halliburton, blackwater, and every other BILLION dollar defense contractor WAY overcharging and down right stealing?

Flame away. Am I wrong?

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Poster: Diamondhead Date: Dec 21, 2010 4:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Don't forget the Bridge to Nowhere.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Dec 21, 2010 5:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

to be fair though that got a bad rap. they wanted to build a bridge so that land could be developed on the other side. the real dumb one up here is whats known as the knick arm crossing. too long to explain but could NEVER pay for itself

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 4:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

>am I wrong?

No.

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Poster: rottenhippie Date: Dec 22, 2010 6:41am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

when I cheered this on earlier in the year , I was naive thinking it was done w/ private donations, maybe even the band kicking down some bread for this .

now its all to clear our government has lost it's F'ing mind if it will take money and fund this.

I love the dead ,but com'on , I've fought for the left w/ every breath of my being , no more , I fall further and further from the left w/ every victim I meet.

I would shrug when folks called Pelosi names , now my honest belief is the woman is bad for government , and needs to be removed at the first opportunity. as speaker she had a real chance to help this country , all she did was drive it further into debt , and from my observation created 0 jobs. I only hope there is a special corner of hell for politicians , cause when I get there I dont want those maggots anywhere near me

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 7:42am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Here is the whole list of who got these grants in 2010:

http://www.imls.gov/news/2010/092710_list.shtm

Are you opposed to the rest of them? Should the government not give grants to libraries, historical societies, museums, zoos, public gardens, cultural institutions, etc.?

No, let's just fund wars. Fuck libraries, artists and musicians, museums, etc. Just wars.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Dec 22, 2010 7:55am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

No, we ought not grant anything that is not essential. It's going to all go anyway . We as a nation can direct this through the political process or the markets will . Do you think the latter (so amorphous a term), gives a damn about anything ? Bring the meat cleaver out . Reflect back on countries that are unable to sell their bonds and/or have a major currency devaluation. It's not pretty. But in Indonesia , Thailand and Mexico (EU currently through the Fed) the US was the backstop. Who is going to be our backstop? It's not art or war. Both could be cut completely and it would not solve our back cracking deficit and debt. It's the entitlements. And that is going to hurt.
I think our mindset and expectations as Americans are going to have to change while we pay for our bad financial behavior (evil and unconscionable if we leave this debt intact for future generations).

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 9:15am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Well, no, if you cut out the war, you'd save some funds LOL.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Dec 22, 2010 9:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Deficits don't matter - Cheney

http://www.ontheissues.org/2004/Dick_Cheney_Budget_+_Economy.htm

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Dec 22, 2010 9:44am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I remember when O'Neill was kneecapped and left in '02 . The choices we had to face then w/ a 500 M. deficit seem so quaint now.

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Poster: rottenhippie Date: Dec 22, 2010 8:06am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

here's and idea , lets take my tax money and feed the poor , provide jobs, at a minimum , try to curtail bridge collapse,

Put the money where it does the most good, you want ME to fund your GD archive? lol no thanx

I have enough GD memorabilia to last me a millennium , Santa Cruz has a problem and needs a hook up on some come see me

as I said further and further from the left I fall, The Nancy Pelosi is clueless, maybe not about the Castro District, but about heartland America she is.

This post was modified by rottenhippie on 2010-12-22 16:06:15

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Poster: cousinkix1953 Date: Dec 23, 2010 1:21am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Wait until 1-3-11. Pelosi won't be the speakerette any more. Gone will be those USAF jets transporting most of the San Francisco Bay Area Democrats back to their home districts on Friday nights. No private service back to DC on Monday mornings. She won't have her flying bars with a $100 K stockpile of free booze either. Nancy will have to fly commercial out of SFO just like the little people and buy the tickets out of her own pocket...

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Dec 22, 2010 8:10am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Tom Coburn of Oklahoma should perhaps be less worried about a few hundred thousand going to digitize a Dead music archive and more concerned about his indefensible opposition to a bill that would pay for the medical expenses incurred for the firemen, police and rescue workers who responded to the 9/11 attacks:

From today's NY Times:
Headlines in normally conservative news outlets blasted Republicans. Newsmaxx.com wrote that: “Giuliani Raps Fellow Republicans for Holding Up 9/11 Heroes Money‎.” Fox News host Shepard Smith drew attention to Senator Tom Coburn of Oklahoma, who has said he will try to block the legislation.

“He is the man who is vowing to slow this down or block it, so the necessary funding for the illnesses of the first responders who made it to Ground Zero to try to save lives on the day that America changed — remember?,” Mr. Smith said during his broadcast Tuesday. “This is the senator who is vowing to block it. So that it doesn’t make it through.”

Wednesday morning, the former Republican congressman and current MSNBC host Joe Scarborough called the Republican opposition to the bill “a terrible mistake” for the party.

“It’s a terrible terrible mistake to be seen as opposing relief for 9/11 heroes,” he said. “This is one of those times when you get so wrapped up in the game that you forget to look and see what’s happening. Here, the Republicans, whether they know it or not, look horrible.”

In other words, when it comes to moral standing on money issues, Coburn and his hypocritical colleagues who used 9/11 to their political advantage for almost a decade and then turned their backs on the men and women who needed them when the time came to put up or shut should shut the fuck up.

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Poster: rottenhippie Date: Dec 22, 2010 8:21am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful


I'm sick of people saying its only a few 100k, that's why we are 14 trillon dollars in debt. Hard choices have to be made. Look, I know Coburn is an azz. Many of the Republicans in the Senate and house could give a dasmn about me. Trust me the feeling is mutual.

I'm not trying to be a @ just got to call ya on this on "only a few 100k" get real friend, not everybody was born w/ silver spoons in there mouth.

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Dec 22, 2010 8:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

neither am I, "friend". I work for a living.

I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of Coburn beating up on the expense of a digitized arhcive--which I agree taxpayers should NOT pay for--but turning his back on REAL money to help REAL PEOPLE who actually need it. He tries to champion himself as a "responsible" fiscal conservative, but I didn't hear him whining about the $15 BILLION the Pentagon LOST--actually LOST, that is to say MISPLACED--COULD NOT FIND--in Iraq, or other wasteful expenditures related to defense spending, like nuclear submarines that sit in dock for years doing nothing and cost taxpayers MILLIONS.

These Republicans use relatively meaningless expenditures like the digitized archive to make themselves look responsible but green light every single military expenditure w/out blinking when the Pentagon's bloated $700 Billion-a-year budget FAR OUTWEIGHS any other agency budget....and yeah, that includes health care.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 9:13am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

>These Republicans use relatively meaningless expenditures like the digitized archive to make themselves look responsible but green light every single military expenditure w/out blinking when the Pentagon's bloated $700 Billion-a-year budget FAR OUTWEIGHS any other agency budget....and yeah, that includes health care.

Bingo. This sort of maneuver is cynical. It is not about saving the taxpayer anything. It's peanuts. It just generates easy outrage against people the good senator figures are easy to get people outraged about (you know, dirty hippies).

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Poster: Hal R Date: Dec 22, 2010 9:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Right you are, this is a way to divert attention from this.
Direct costs of Iraq war from Wikipedia.

As of February 2010, around $704 billion has been spent based on estimates of current expenditure rates[1], which range from the Congressional Research Service (CRS) estimate of $2 billion per week to $12 billion a month, an estimate by economist Joseph Stiglitz.[2]



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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 9:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Exactly. You cannot tell me about x billion PER WEEK in Iraq and then expect me to get upset about $600,00 to some little university archive. Archiving historical records and artifacts is good work, people.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Dec 22, 2010 10:10am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Ring, it is good work and I support it BUT do you realize that students in the UC system organized protests this past year, including at UCSC, due to drastic tuition hikes? Now, that's admittedly a California statewide problem and doesn't address fed funds, but if I'm a 21 year old that is having to drop school because of 30% plus tuition hikes, I don't think I'd really enjoy seeing federal money going to archive the artwork on mail order envelopes for an extinct band by card carrying AARP members at my library. That said, I'm glad the work is being done, but I do think people have valid concerns about how it is funded. This seems like an ideal private enterprise partnership with the university.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 10:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

It *is* a partnership with private enterprise, it appears.
I don't believe this involves a tradeoff with financial aid or has any connection to tuition at California state universities.
Are you opposed then to all federal spending on the arts and culture? You wish none of the projects on that page got funded? As I think Hal pointed out, that is not a very progressive idea, as it simply means the rich have culture and music and art and everyone else does not. And if this did happen, a great many jobs would be lost.

edit - also, there has been a lot of confusion in this thread about exactly who is benefitting. Some people actually seemed to think this was money somehow going to Bob and Phil! The archive will be public and free, if I understand correctly. Those arguing against this seem to be saying libraries should not be public and free. Not really progress for civilization ...

This post was modified by ringolevio on 2010-12-22 18:26:12

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 22, 2010 10:55am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hey BD & RLO!

Since you guys stayed close to the one pet peeve I have, and I am chiming in late, just wanted to say I agree that this is trivia at one level, and of course it's a continuum of where we want to spend our money, BUT what all college kids should be protesting, besides military spending, is the unreal contributions, generally hidden (truly!!!) going to fund sports, primarily football, and the fact that this generally is a huge investment with only intangible results (ie, NO $!!! despite suggestions of local economies gurus that try to argue it does benefit them) that are even less defensible than esoteric notions of how the arts benefit humankind in general, and students in particular.

Seriously--it's a HUGE $ issue, and just like public funding of professional football stadiums and such we discussed sometime back, the data are clearly "in"...students should NOT be forced (they currently are at the majority of schools) to fund the football teams that only provide real results ($) if they are in the top 5% or so of the teams across the country.

Fig'd you'd be up on this, BD, and perhaps one inclined to defend it on the intangibles, but I just don't buy it...regardless, it should be transparent, and it's not. My kids, at uni's in different states, all paid "generic" athletic fees of which substantial portions (literally $100s each semester) were ear marked for the football teams alone.

It makes me puke. And that's not just cause my own team sucks.

Bottom line: as Mando notes, it really is astounding how when you start looking at it, there are absurd examples of every kind, from every part of any continuum you want to examine, of how we spend our money that if you took a vote today on each and everyone, you'd end up thinking "how the F@#K did we ever get to the place in which we spend this much on this item/issue/whatever?!?"

Thus, whenever we single out one tree in the forest, it does look odd, but when you put it back in the forest, and compare it to the other forests, you get so upset that you have to just put it all back down and say "I'll deal with this later cause I gotta go Xmas shopping!"

Or at least I do. Works for me, but I am a cynical old fart that likes to point out when folks have their facts wrong without necessarily giving them an indication of how they should act to extricate themselves from this screwed up situation except by doing the impossible, such as burning down the entire forest in my whacky little metaphor.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 11:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hey BD & RLO!

> even less defensible than esoteric notions of how the arts benefit humankind in general

I just find it very funny (funny-strange as well as funny-ha ha) that in a gathering of Deadheads, there would be a sense that "how the arts benefit humankind" is somehow esoteric?! Most people here don't act like that's a strange or esoteric notion to us; most of us act like we could barely get through the day without them, and spend hours every single day explaining what the arts mean to us, how they've defined our lives. I mean, this is going to sound goofy - no then again maybe here it isn't going to sound goofy - but I have been known to have JGB in both ears and realize that I have tears on my face as a result. It is not esoteric to me how the arts benefit humankind!

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 22, 2010 12:18pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hey BD & RLO!

Right with ya; assume you knew I was phrasing it as some might (and regardless of how you and I agree, there are many--I hope I shouldn't say "most"?--that would view it as "esoteric" relative to so many other day to day issues, "food on the table", blah, blah, blah).

Course, I put it right behind "science education"!

;)

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Poster: high flow Date: Dec 22, 2010 12:56pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hey BD & RLO!

Interesting that the Grateful Dead Archive at UCSC is now a part of the "food on the table" conversation. "Kids we'd have *REAL* Frosted Flakes if it weren't for this g*ddamn Grateful Dead Archive Project. I am very sorry. But for now we can only afford Freaky Flakes."

As a tax-payer, I should be consulted about such expenditures.

"Well you voted, didn't you?!?!", you might reply.

Yes, but I am a member of California's Common Sense Party(ha ha...) who's members have recently been added to the list of Endangered Species.

I say keep the archive and make real changes.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 22, 2010 1:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hey BD & RLO!

We can vote?

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Dec 22, 2010 1:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hey BD & RLO!

More than once if you know how...

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Poster: snori Date: Dec 22, 2010 2:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hey BD & RLO!

Early and often ?

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Dec 22, 2010 2:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hey BD & RLO!

Just google "diebold" and "voting" and see what pops up.

Yes, I'm still bitter about stolen elections and no, I don't think I should "get over it". (And yes, I know JFK stole the election from Nixon).

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 22, 2010 2:43pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hey BD & RLO!

Anybody with that much sweat on his upperlip deserved to lose.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Dec 22, 2010 2:55pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hey BD & RLO!

Hey, any guy that learned legal ethics at the same place as Ken Starr and I can't be all bad, right?

I got in "trouble" in law school b/c I flipped off his portrait every time I walked by it and once spit on the ground and a Dean really lit into me and I lit back into him saying it was a disgrace to my degree to show any respect for Tricky Dick and that the only constitutional law he had learned was in order to break it. Of course, since I was appreciably older than most of the other students (and even a prof or two), they all thought I was nuts and fighting a lost war. (which is true) But I did write and get a short reply from Hunter S. before he died (although only via email so no "autograph), so that's something. (FYI, Raoul Duke name by Trudeau is based on Hunter S. speech at Duke) Best thing the uni ever did was refuse to house the Nixon library - although our presence in China is HUGE due to him.

Have we strayed far enough away from the original intent of this thread?

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 22, 2010 3:41pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hey BD & RLO!

I think that's a wrap!

Good story.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 12:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hey BD & RLO!

Now that's esoteric for ya :)
*kidding* (sort of ...)

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 22, 2010 12:47pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hey BD & RLO!

Hmmm, now that I re-read it, it sounds like leaving it to the "educators" in the "education colleges" which is the biggest catastrophe of the last century...don't get me started. Good joke by old bio prof: "roll up your window as you drive past the education college, or they may throw a degree in!"

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 12:56pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hey BD & RLO!

That's pretty funny ...

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 22, 2010 12:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hey BD & RLO!

[Needed two for emphasis?]

Right with ya; assume you knew I was phrasing it as some might (and regardless of how you and I agree, there are many--I hope I shouldn't say "most"?--that would view it as "esoteric" relative to so many other day to day issues, "food on the table", blah, blah, blah).

Course, I put it right behind "science education"!

;)

This post was modified by William Tell on 2010-12-22 20:21:04

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Dec 22, 2010 11:08am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Hey BD & RLO!

DITTO! I like the Ivy League approach to sports, and I say this as someone who has been to a lot of Final Fours (but not so many college football bowls).

And my football team truly sucks, but we will be ACC CHAMPS IN 2011! (of course, we are the school that got sued and settled with a female placekicker - talk about Title IX). Mando, stop laughing! At least our players take care of their dogs.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Dec 22, 2010 10:34am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Please reread my post - I specifically said it's not tied to the tuition. It's the APPEARANCE that gets people upset. I don't think it's hard to understand why people are upset and I fully think that the GOP is cynically using this as an example of wasteful funding to stir up political support. I'm sure Coburn already has his own fundraising letter addressing it sent out.

No, I'm not opposed to all federal funding of arts and culture, but if it gets funded by taxpayers, then taxpayers have a right to argue for what should and should not get funded. Recall Piss Christ? Well that just happened again. http://www.warholfoundation.org/foundation/35_detail.html?page=0
Eric Cantor has already informed the Smithsonian this will be an issue when it comes time for granting budget requests.

I understand the GOP wants to fully pull pulbic funding of the NEA, NPR, and a myriad other institutions. As a part owner of an art gallery and legal counsel to a film that chronicles underground art, I do pay attention to this stuff.
http://www.thealternativecafe.com/index.php
http://www.newbrowfilm.com/

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Dec 22, 2010 6:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

If those agencies are completely defunded what effect would that have on the gallery and the arts in general ?

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 11:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Right but the point is just that that was manipulated. If he sent out the same letter or sound bite saying OH MY GOD Look at this wasteful spending at the Hartford Public Library or the Indiana University library or the Honolulu zoo, would it have the same effect?

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Poster: advokat Date: Dec 22, 2010 5:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Not at all - I fully understand that the GD makes an easy target, especially when the archive is being housed at UCSC, the school Reagan had planned so there would be no central place to gather after the Berkeley free speech debacles he and his AG Ed Meese cracked down on.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 6:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Oh, yeah ...

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Dec 22, 2010 10:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

This is moot Ring. Soon 20%, (20%!!) of our spending will go to service the debt. That grant to the archive was paid with borrowed money as where the others. That's just insane.
I would like to drink Grand Marnier Cent Cinquantenaire again, but I can't afford it and I'm not taking a bank loan out to buy a few cases.
Life's lottery is unfair. I wish it wasn't so.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 11:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

But then shouldn't we say the war is being funded by borrowed money and whoops, we can't afford that, so we'd better bring all the troops home?

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Poster: Diamondhead Date: Dec 22, 2010 10:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

You realize this all has been a plot? Obama and Rhino struck a deal. The Dead play concerts for Obama and bring in the hippie vote and the archive gets the bucks. Simple. End of story.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Dec 22, 2010 11:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I wish it were true. Not so much the particular people (necessarily), but the ease with which we could fix it.
I had no idea the hippie vote kicked so much ass. I thought Cook or King's County knew how to play the game. We must be $2 whores (or less) for only $650K . For our services I would expect a modern Getty Museum museum (slightly smaller of course), a 6K concert hall , a small (K-12) school And college of music.
And I get to spend some alone time with a few Rhino execs, with immunity.

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Poster: Diamondhead Date: Dec 23, 2010 11:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

LOL. And don't forget the Avatar Dead playing in that 6K hall.

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Dec 22, 2010 9:15am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

AMEN, grendel... the hypocrisy is astounding.

Been reading this thread for a while now, so I looked up this grant as suggested by RLO. Two pertinent things jumped out: this grant was funded in 2009 - further proving Coburn is grandstanding with this. Second: the govt. grant of $615k is matched by $795k from another source (doesn't specify). !! To me, it sounds like a legit use of funds using new tools for digital archiving. With matching funds from either the university or some private source, can't we feel better about this?

Sure, the money could help the poor, or tuition grants, or some other altruistic need, but it sure seems a better use of the money than a commemorative plaque in some town square (typical "pork spending"), or for more weapons of war.

http://www.imls.gov/news/2009/092409b_list.shtm#CA

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 10:05am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Yes, and if you read the project description, it sounds like other archivists stand to learn a lot from the project, too.

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Poster: Finster Baby Date: Dec 22, 2010 9:15am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Federal government shoud not be funding any of those things...including wars (but that is a different story.)

I stated in the other thread on this topic....
I am all for funding libraries etc., but it should be done locally and not federally.

IMO, the fed should not be funding anything that is not specifically stated in the constitution that it is their responsibilty to fund.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 9:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Okay. That's a massively far different opinion from mine, but that's okay.

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Poster: Hal R Date: Dec 22, 2010 9:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

So you are then saying that the rich communities will have decent libraries and arts and the hell with those that aren't. I totally disagree.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 7:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I'm confused. I'm totally confused by this whole thread.

Are you opposed to, or simply unaware, that our government funds the arts? This is not something new. Honest. It was not Barack Obama's or Nancy Pelosi's idea to fund the arts.

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Dec 22, 2010 7:43am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I'm all for funding the arts, but I'm not so sure this "art" needs funding. We have become fairly self-sufficient in our cataloging and perserving the music. And we also have Rhino on the commercial side, sitting on a vast quantitiy of pristine recordings. For me, I see that there are many other candidates for this money more deserving than a collection of Grateful Dead memorabilia. I think Jerry might prefer the money go to fund more music education in public schools for example. I do like the idea of a well organized system for perserving all things Dead, but I'd much rather see it privately funded if possible.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 9:30am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

You should take a look at what those other grants were for, then:

http://www.imls.gov/news/2010/092710_list.shtm

There's nothing unusual or extravagant about this particular project. It's what archives do - they catalog and restore and preserve things. There's nothing particularly expensive or un-ordinary about doing this with materials related to the Grateful Dead. It's the same way your local historical society collects, keeps track of, puts on little exhibits etc., of local historical artifacts. Most frequently, they aren't anything exciting, they're examples of people's clothing or personal letters or odd personal items. There's no reason the items relating to the Grateful Dead, in our culture, are more or less worthy of being preserved, recorded, exhibited etc.

This post was modified by ringolevio on 2010-12-22 17:30:56

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Dec 22, 2010 9:35am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Nothing unusual? You don't think this goes right to the heart of the culture wars the GOP pulls out all the time? Law and order god-fearing Christians versus long-haired draft dodging hippies glorifying drugs (come on, I'm sure that's in a press release somewhere).

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Poster: dead-head_Monte Date: Dec 22, 2010 10:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

How about this? Net Neutrality is finished on the wireless superhighway. This means our wireless internet - in the USA - will soon become a two-tiered system for all of us. Users will be required to pay extra fees to get in "the fast lane." "Slow lanes" will be saturated with non-stop and endless ads, spam, phishing, spy-bots, propaganda items, infomercials, brainwashing, lies, and bullshit - 24/7/365. Land lines are next. Web sites such as The Archive and UCSC's GD Archive will be in the slow lane, unless and until they pay huge extra fees to Google, Verizon, AT&T, Comcast, Time Warner Cable, and all the ISPs. Obama and the FCC have sold us out! Net Neutrality is over. It's a no-brainer that The Internet Archive and the GD's Archive at USCS will become moot points on the internet until they pony up big money to the media moguls.

Game Over!

Grateful Dead history, our shared culture, and hippies' experiences like mine don't matter. It never happened. Forget about Libraries. It's over.

Glenn Beck has been rewriting our new American history for you. NOTHING ELSE matters.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Dec 22, 2010 10:41am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

this just in an hour ago - guess we will see what happens (crossing fingers)

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/web/12/22/fcc.paid.prioritization.ars/index.html

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Poster: dead-head_Monte Date: Dec 22, 2010 11:14am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

The article you linked mentions how Media moguls and ISPs will be rolling out "new priority access services that could improve consumers' Internet experiences."

Game Over!

What most likely will happen is this. Very quickly you will see all future internet software, upgrades, developments, services, and their data streams occurring in the "new priority access services" environment ONLY. Think of this as a new Operating System on your computer. And this will come with huge new fees for everyone. Forever.

The internet "slow lanes" will be useless in no time.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Dec 22, 2010 11:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

does this mean that Call of Duty on XBox Live will be slower?? that would completely ruin my existence at this point!! If my gaming experience remains unchanged, I will deal with the rest :)

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Dec 22, 2010 11:04am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I to we
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgmcGM3wCwY


And on that cheery note ,
Merry Christmas to you and yours dire. S.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Dec 22, 2010 11:22am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

thank you Micah - and a very Happy Holiday Season to to you and yours also :)

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 9:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

No, it is nothing unusual. Click the link I gave that shows all the other recipients of these grants. It is ordinary. The Dead archive was singled out by the senator because he figured he could generate exactly the kind of response he did generate, by bashing the Grateful Dead. Larger sums went to the Hartford Public Library, the Honolulu Zoo, etc. Are those also terrible and shocking things our government should not be involved with?

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Dec 22, 2010 7:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

"Funding the arts?"

i.e. making the arts accessible to underprivileged inner-city school children is quite a bit different than financing a Grateful Dead archive...

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Dec 22, 2010 8:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

much better use of the money - good call Cliff

not sure UCSC cant afford to do it on their own anyways. gotta love bizarre government spending

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Poster: rottenhippie Date: Dec 22, 2010 8:07am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful



thank you Cliff , that's all I'm trying to say

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 9:12am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Nonsense, take a look at how arts are generally funded, you're mistaken.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Dec 22, 2010 12:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

What is it that I am mistaken about?

You believe that American tax dollars should be used to finance a Grateful Dead archive?

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 12:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Yes, haven't I argued that clearly? Obviously folks disagree, which is fine, I do indeed think it's a good expenditure.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Dec 21, 2010 2:26pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

"Coburn is a champion of fiscal responsibility, opposing
earmarks and unchecked government spending"

Has he ever voted against any defense spending? Just curious.

http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm

What happened to DH Monte? Haven't seen him around in awhile...

This post was modified by bluedevil on 2010-12-21 22:26:53

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Dec 21, 2010 3:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I haven't either , BD .

Hey Monte ! This thread is set up on the tee for you .

The ending of all earmarks is an important symbolic act . It's when we come to entitlements having to be cut 10% across the board , along with most everything else , that will be the Big One . I wonder if we will riot in the streets like in Greece and France ?
I also wonder if it will come about through political change or when the market (Chinese mostly) refuses to buy our bonds ? Boy , if it's the latter wouldn't Mao (the butcher) be smiling at his enemies pain . Though maybe it's Deng Xiaoping who would bathe in the most glory against the gwailo .

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Dec 21, 2010 2:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Hey Brewster did you receive any federal funding for this place? Perhaps the Senator could see the value of having archives digitized if he hung out here on occasion. I bet he would love to see that anyone can listen to this or even better yet, load it on their ipod:

http://www.archive.org/details/SenatorCoburnPrayer

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Dec 21, 2010 7:37pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Have to agree. Sure, it's a raindrop in the ocean, but there is simply no logical, grown up argument to be made for funneling federal tax dollars to a GD archive.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 4:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Sure there is! The government has always funded the arts and culture. A particular subsidy could always be debated, of course, but to say there's no argument to fund it is way off.

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Dec 22, 2010 11:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

"Sure there is!"

Uh...no, there isn't. The federal government should not be spending money taxed from the American people on something as inconsequential as a digital archive for defunct rock band. Period. The fact that the Dead may have more cultural relevance than, say, Bon Jovi or Uriah Heep or whoever is beside the point. Waste is waste, and considering our debt is at nightmare proportions, responsible priorities should be adhered to. Shit, we don't have the money to pay for essential services, much less such claptrap as this. The very suggestion that this is a valid use of tax dollars is beyond asinine.

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Dec 22, 2010 12:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

YES

And it seems some folks are saying "Well, look at all the other crap that gets funding..." Yes, and...? Sorry, just because this example is one of thousands doesn't mean it is irrelevant. You have to start saying "No" somewhere, and might as well be here.

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Dec 22, 2010 12:31pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Exactly. The "everybody else does it, only worse" argument is completely bogus.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 12:34pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I'm not sure who made an "Everybody does it, only worse" argument. I made a positive argument that this and similar projects at libraries, museums and cultural institutions *should* be funded. The war funds should be cut instead.

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Dec 22, 2010 1:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Even if cut the war budget substantially, any "savings" (toss out the usual congressional accounting tricks and we would still be in the hole big time for the long term) should go to, oh, about a million other things before we ever got to this project. Truly, the idea that people should pay taxes in part to fund an archive of Grateful Dead stuff is purely ludicrous.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 4:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I think most people have no clue what their taxes fund, and the general reaction to being told what their taxes fund is outrage. But try eliminating most of those same things, and the same people are even more outraged.

Seriously, what's been so fascinating to me in this thread is that to a lot of folks, it was apparently news that taxes fund things like libraries, art exhibits, museums, etc. I'm sure quite a few people think this was Barack Obama's idea.

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Dec 23, 2010 7:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I don't know about "most people", but I'm pretty aware of the general scope of government spending, though I don't think any single individual could give you an itemized list.

The role of the federal government in subsidizing ANY art when we are sinking deeper into debt by the day just to the keep the lights on and heater running is one debate, and I think that's where your responses seem to be focused. But as to my response to the original post, that question was whether Coburn is correct in identifying the use of tax dollars to fund a digital archive for the GD as a waste of money. I maintain that he absolutely is, and have yet to hear any compelling argument as to why he isn't. If someone wants to make a case that creating a digital archive for a rock band that does fairly well for itself warrants worsening the country's abysmal financial situation- even by a few dollars - I'm all ears.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 23, 2010 8:21am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

>The role of the federal government in subsidizing ANY art when we are sinking deeper into debt by the day just to the keep the lights on and heater running

We aren't sinking into debt to keep the lights and heater on, but to fight two wars. There'd be no issue keeping the lights on if we'd never decided to bomb a country that never did anything to us. To blame arts spending instead is senseless; it's like one grain of sand in the Sahara Desert.

>If someone wants to make a case that creating a digital archive for a rock band that does fairly well for itself warrants worsening the country's abysmal financial situation- even by a few dollars - I'm all ears.

It is not "for the band," that's completely irrelevant. The band doesn't benefit in any way. The government isn't giving the Grateful Dead money, for heaven's sake, they're funding an archive. Archives are for the public, and for scholars, and for posterity. It hardly requires me to make a case for government funding of the arts and scholarship, I'm sorry but that's ridiculous.

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Dec 23, 2010 9:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

"There'd be no issue keeping the lights on if we'd never decided to bomb a country that never did anything to us"

That's simply absurd. Even when we were carrying a "surplus" for brief stretch in the 90s, it was just creative accounting. This country's issues with borrowing and spending money it doesn't have predate by decades any of our recent military excursions. Our recent wars have nothing to do with this topic (I'd maintain this would be a clear waste of tax dollars no matter what our fiscal situation, but that too is a different discussion). To present the situation as a choice between a war or a GD archive is a false scenario. As far as it being "for" the Grateful Dead, it is "for" the collection of Grateful Dead material.

You keep veering off into anti-war rants, but you have yet to present a compelling argument as to why federal tax dollars should be spent on a digital archive of GRATEFUL DEAD stuff.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 23, 2010 11:09am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I guess I just see it as self-evident. It's the same reason the government subsidizes education, scholarly and medical research, the arts, libraries, museums, and cultural institutions. (Human betterment.) You surely don't need me to list the reasons for all this? I realize there are people who think there's no legitimate rationale for a government doing anything other than maintaining a military; clearly I think the government has quite a few other responsibilities.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Dec 23, 2010 11:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

It might be a pretty obvious thing to say, but isn't a "government of the people, by the people, for the people" pretty much obligated to carry out its duties in a way that best serves the physical and mental well being of said people?

Just saying, I think you're on the side of the angels on this one, D.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 23, 2010 11:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I was just thinking we needed a European perspective here; this "government get outta my life" thing is peculiarly American, no? In my experience, Europeans are usually shaking their heads in confusion when Americans have these ridiculous conversations.

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Poster: dead-head_Monte Date: Dec 23, 2010 1:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

In America today, it's Glenn Beck's way, or the highway. My era is over. I'm a relic. Social and environmental justice are taboo in the 21st century. It's a new America here. I'm thinking same as you are.

You're an art-terrorist. We're related since I'm a former soundman-terrorist and music-loving communist. I'm an anarchist Net Neutrality-terrorist, a progressive-peace-terrorist, a taper-terrorist, hippie-terrorist, and I'm a Greenpeace-loving-eco-terrorist same as Jerry. I was born in 1951 when Joseph McCarthy wasn't looking.

The Internet Archive is a bunch of digital librarian-terrorists. They are hosting my vintage Americana tape recordings. They're hosting a WikiLeaks collection. They're hosting my peace and reconciliation essay. The Archive-terrorists are in a conspiracy with everyone here on these Forums since they are hosting The Grateful Dead tape collection. We're terrorists now because we're associating with them.

Obama Meets Privately With the Dead - March 30, 2009.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 23, 2010 8:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I don't know about terrorist, but I'm definitely something of a relic. Not trying to get people riled up, honestly, but I've slowly gleaned over the months here that lots of deadheads aren't radicals or peaceniks or lefty liberals like I thought we all were.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Dec 23, 2010 11:55am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

i wish I could say that "government get outta my life" was purely part of your political life, but, by and large, it's a major policy strand of our current government's thinking as they seek to devolve responsibility from central government to local interest groups. (The 'Big Society' they laughingly call it.) Really makes you wonder why anybody would want to vote for a party that seeks to distance themselves from the blame for pretty much everything.

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Poster: deadhead53 Date: Dec 23, 2010 11:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I think my last post was out of frustration over many issues, I do not think this should be funded by the government, Gov should help fund education, roads, military and many other important services. I just think we fund way to many things that we don't need to. As this government both dems and repubs put us deeper and deeper into debt when does it end. Read up on Rome and how they collapsed, very similar!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to All and to all a good night!

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Dec 23, 2010 5:41pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

You keep trying to expand this into something more than what it is. To me, the only thing "self evident" is that it is ridiculous to spend taxpayer money on a digital archive for the Grateful Dead, or any other rock band. Hell, maybe MORE so than any other rock band. Few performers in history have been as exhaustively chronicled as the GD, and almost all of the legwork has been done by the fans themselves. We're not talking about the library of congress capturing ghostly delta blues here. The idea that the Dead's legacy is in need of further chronicling paid for by the government less it be lost is preposterous. It's already been preserved. Again: wasteful.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 23, 2010 8:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

>To me, the only thing "self evident" is that it is ridiculous to spend taxpayer money on a digital archive for the Grateful Dead, or any other rock band.

It isn't "for the Grateful Dead." This is like saying, the government shouldn't fund libraries because the authors of the books make money selling their books. The tax money that supports libraries doesn't go to the authors of the books, it goes to the patrons, i.e., it is for the public.

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Dec 23, 2010 8:31pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Holy fuck. The whole point of the thread is that Coburn tagged a GD archive project as wasteful (I maintain that he is correct; you want to soapbox about war and public libraries). The project isn't archiving Laurie Anderson or Rush Limbaugh or Roky Erikson or Ron Jeremy, so cut the semantic bullshit about "for". You seem like a reasonably bright guy. It shouldn't be this hard for you, unless you've just determined you can't hold the line for your position.

To recap:

"The UCSC Grateful Dead Archive, announced in 2008, is an extensive collection of thousands of pictures, documents and pieces of memorabilia. The archive also contains band member journals, paraphernalia related to the band's extensive social network of devoted fans and the group's highly unusual and successful business ventures."

Really, clouding your retreat behind a cloud of rhetoric about larger issues seems like a rather weak tactic. I implore you to offer an argument in defense of THIS PROJECT receiving taxpayer money, which is essentially duplicating work that has already been done in the private sector, or concede that it is a textbook example of waste.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 24, 2010 4:37am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I'm a gal not a guy, but no matter. Maybe we should call this off for now, owing to the holiday spirit? :) I do think those larger issues are all relevant, and I guess I thought defending the value of *this* project (as opposed to Rush Limbaugh etc.) was not necessary on a Grateful Dead forum! Maybe you don't understand the full scope of what they're doing? They're not archiving the music - it doesn't duplicate what is already here on this web site. it's an archive of documents and cultural artifacts, to preserve them for future generations, and for scholarship. It's just like a museum, only digital. Many museums will begin this process (digitizing whatever they've got that can be digitized). Art museums, historical societies etc. will all do this, slowly but surely - as funds are available, whether through private donations or government grants. *What* the materials are isn't really the point though I assumed the value of Grateful Dead materials in the larger culture was taken for granted here (the value of preserving and documenting this culture for future generations). The government has always done this in a big way. We can certainly disagree, but it's not a new argument to suggest this is a good thing for governments to be involved in.

Please no hard feelings, I just like arguing, but I can call it off for the holidays. Have a happy one :)

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Poster: skuzzlebutt Date: Dec 24, 2010 6:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Just for the record, I fully understand what the project entails. What I am waiting for is for someone to articulate WHY making a digital catalog of all this stuff is SO critical as to warrant public funding (at any time, really, but especially now). There must be, literally, millions of data points on the Grateful Dead already accessible to the general public in libraries (which you've mentioned) and on the internet: photographs, artwork, interviews, concerts, document scans, film footage...Do we really need to subsidize a fresh effort to collect this stuff?

That said, I do apologize if I got a tad prickly during this thread(and about the gender assumption). There was really no need, and it was certainly nothing personal. Funny thing is, I accused you of soapboxing, when in reality I have a bit of a problem staying off of my own. All the best, anI hope you enjoy the Holiday Season to the fullest!

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 27, 2010 8:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Peace :) maybe we can resume after the holidays ... happy new year!

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Poster: NorthStarDead Date: Dec 29, 2010 5:04am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I am late for supper on this thread but regardless
of your views on politics, who cares?
What a senator or any one says or thinks.
Don't let it ruin your day.

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Poster: unclejohn52 Date: Dec 23, 2010 8:56am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

AMEN! not to mention tax cuts aimed at the the wealthiest 1% !!

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 23, 2010 9:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

That too. Revoke those tax cuts and fund hundreds of archives.

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Poster: deadhead53 Date: Dec 22, 2010 5:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I respectfully disagree with you ring, I know what our taxes fund and I don't think it should go to things like this, I love the dead but to fund this and other stupid projects like keeping the manure smell down in the midwest (1st stimulus bill along with other stupid things) makes people really irritated especially with an economy now. I am against federally funding many things and I don't make this specific to Obama, every President since Teddy Roosevelt have been doing this. My question is when does it stop? How long do we do this until we can't fund it anymore because of waste with these projects. If you could guarantee that you could fund these with strict budgets and strict oversight, you might get me to change but it is getting out of control and when does it stop? Have a good night all!

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 6:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

>to fund this and other stupid projects like keeping the manure smell down in the midwest

I musta missed that ... where my husband's family comes from - Lebanon County, PA - man, we could have used some of that money to keep the manure smell down :) brilliant idea.

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Poster: cousinkix1953 Date: Dec 23, 2010 1:08am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

The US Govt has been funding PBS/NPR since the late 60s. National Endownment for the Arts is not a new idea either. Obama musta been 10-12 years old when this began; so we can't blame it on him alone.

Maybe Coburn is really pissed off about those DEAD Obama campaign fundraiser concerts in 2008?

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Dec 22, 2010 12:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Unfortunately the war budget wont ever be significantly cut, which leaves us with the question of how to spend what little funds are left to the arts. There will never be enough to fund every worthy cause, so who is to decide what is worthy? Sadly, that decision is left to the bozos the majority put in office. But here I find myself agreeing somewhat with one of the said bozos, in my opinion, the Dead Library is pretty far down the worthy list.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 12:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Okay.
I gotta run ...

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Dec 22, 2010 12:56pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

the "Direwolf0701 XBox Gaming Library Charitable Fund" is a FAR more worthy cause (imho)

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Dec 22, 2010 12:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Hey, did you hear about the latest Wii game?

Blow Me: 2011

I'd tell you how it's played, but I'd probably get arrested.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Dec 22, 2010 1:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

LMAO!!!

damn, gotta get a quick letter off to Santa before it's too late

:)

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Dec 22, 2010 1:10pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Sorry, this thread was screaming for a good hijack

I also hear you'll need a new controller for the game. Again, I won't attempt to describe it.

This post was modified by SomeDarkHollow on 2010-12-22 21:10:56

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Dec 22, 2010 1:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Sorry, this thread was screaming for a good hijack

talk about a wicked cool "joystick"

woohooooo

:)

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Poster: high flow Date: Dec 22, 2010 1:11pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

ALRIGHT, BREAK IT UP!!

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Dec 22, 2010 1:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

You, sir, are no fun anymore.

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Poster: high flow Date: Dec 22, 2010 1:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

That hurts. Especially from the guy who said my jug-band name, Men With Jugs, was nasty.

As you were joystickboy.:o

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Dec 22, 2010 1:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Well played, sir.


A seemless blending of the Forum and the Brokedown.

Kudos.

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Poster: high flow Date: Dec 22, 2010 1:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Thanks. But I see that, once again, Dire has beat me to the joystick.

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Poster: portmcgroin Date: Dec 21, 2010 10:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I was all for it last night when I posted this now I am not sure. you all bring up some good points the amount of money is not really the issue, more like waste is waste. A couple things the dead are a pretty generous bunch as far as benefit shows and different foundations(8.6 million Rex Foundation) throughout the years so it kinda nice that someone else besides us fans is giving back to them. I know about the $100 ticket price but that is another story at least further is only $50. Another is the amount of $$$$ the band brings into towns when they tour. Can you imagine how much $$$$ it brought into the economy of a venue like Highgate Vt. The govt. gives all these tax breaks to major companies to move into a town just to have them move out in a few years so at least the Dead have generated income all along. I am happy that its happening just would have been nice if we helped pay for part of it with ticket price and merchandise etc... or even if the band helped out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GEYlydjjNc
This post was modified by portmcgroin on 2010-12-22 06:28:18

This post was modified by portmcgroin on 2010-12-22 06:29:28

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 4:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

>the dead are a pretty generous bunch as far as benefit shows and different foundations(8.6 million Rex Foundation) throughout the years so it kinda nice that someone else besides us fans is giving back to them

But funding for the archive doesn't go to the Dead, they don't get anything out of this as far as I know, unless you count the exposure, but they hardly need that.

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Poster: portmcgroin Date: Dec 22, 2010 7:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I think they benefit from some much needed recognition not coin but more personal satisfaction that they got picked for the grant. I don't know if their generiousity has anything to do with them getting choosen for the grant but if the Dead were not as giving with their time and money they may not have been picked in the first place. Hope that makes sense cause my answer kinda confuses me. Kinda like when you help someone out but don't want anything in return then years later you end up on the receiving end. Plus its gotta be cool to know you are a part of something that is getting preserved for all to see on on that kind of a level.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Dec 22, 2010 9:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I really doubt the band's previous or current philanthropy had anything to do with this grant process, but yeah, it's all about preserving the past. Libraries, museums, etc., have thousands of projects like this. I'm for it. It can't all be done through private donations. Most of this stuff simply wouldn't happen if it all required private donations.

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Poster: cousinkix1953 Date: Dec 23, 2010 12:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

The archive got even more $$$ from the wealthy CEO of Seagate Technologies in nearby Scotts Valley! Heads might be one of those few groups, who could support their own pet projects. The KPFA Grateful Dead Marathons bring in lots of $$$ from us too. Any word on the 2011 sixteen hour journey into the vault?

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Poster: dead-head_Monte Date: Dec 21, 2010 7:00pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Brewster's announcement on December 10, 2010

DEAR FRIENDS OF THE ARCHIVE


scancenter.jpgThis year the Internet Archive needs your help. In 2009-2010 we were able to employ hundreds of low income, out of work parents using a stimulus wage subsidy. Most of these parents worked to scan over 150,000 recent books for the blind and dyslexic. We appealed to legislators, but this program was defunded.

We need $5 million dollars next year to keep over 140 parents employed scanning books for the world, and every dollar you contribute between now and the end of the year will go towards keeping someone employed.

Please donate now.

Along with this achievement last year, based on your generous donations the Internet Archive has almost doubled our library of audio, video, and books yet again. We have recently increased our crawling rate 3-fold to keep up with the size of the web. We are growing in every area and would like to share a few of our accomplishments with you who have helped make it all possible.

Highlights of 2010:

sonsandlovers.jpg
850,000 new texts

julesverne.jpg
220,000 new recordings

christmascarol.jpg100,000 new videos

openlibrary.jpg

Redesign of Open Library

wikileaks.jpg

3 times more web archiving

petabox.jpg
Fourth Generation storage system designed and in production



Please visit our website at http://www.archive.org/donate to donate or contact June Goldsmith at june@archive.org.

Best wishes for this Holiday Season and Universal Access for All.IAlogo.png

Sincerely,
Brewster Kahle
Digital Librarian
Internet Archive

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Poster: Old_NJ_Head_Zimmer Date: Dec 21, 2010 3:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

UCSC was one of 51 institutions nationwide that received National Leadership Grants from the IMLS this year totaling nearly $18 million.

"The IMLS is the primary source of federal support for the nation's 123,000 libraries and 17,500 museums, and has a stated mission to create strong libraries and museums that connect people to information and ideas."

So - in short out of the 140,500 eligible institutions for the $18M - the GD project got $615,000

I have to say that is a waste - I know my library sure could have used some of that money.

I don't buy any of the excuses. The band will benefit greatly from the govenments $$ - with $ out of my pocket.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Dec 21, 2010 3:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I guess it pays to perform benefits for Pelosi and others .....

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Dec 22, 2010 10:05am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

All politicians are fucks.

Politicians are involved, therefore it sucks.

Apologies to Aristotle.

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Poster: rastamon Date: Dec 22, 2010 11:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

i agree, though i try to vote for the least fucked..
The LESS anyone or ANY Org is dependent on federal funds or handouts, the better. I'll contribute here

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Dec 22, 2010 11:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

"Oh no we aren't! We're dicks! We're reckless, arrogant, stupid dicks! And the Film Actors' Guild!.. are pussies. And Kim Jong Il!.. is an asshole. Pussies don't like dicks because puusies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes. Assholes who just want to shit on everything. Pussies may think they can deal with assholes their way, but the only thing that can fuck an asshole... is a dick... with some balls. The problem with dicks is that sometimes they fuck too much, or fuck when it isn't apporoporate,..."

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Poster: cousinkix1953 Date: Dec 23, 2010 1:31am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

dicks. pussies. assholes. shit. fuck. Hey man, I thought that George Carlin died about two years ago?

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Poster: portmcgroin Date: Dec 22, 2010 9:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

Steel says "the focus should be on the benefits of the whole archiving system and not the Grateful Dead project specifically".
The grant from the federal institute for Museum and Library Services was awarded to UCSC so they could use the Grateful Dead Archive to work on a new innovative, "socially constructed" archiving system.
"The goal of the whole project is to advance archival practice," the goal is not the digitavation of the Grateful Dead Archive, but to create a socially constructed archive which allows individuals access to material. Then people can help in the identifaction of materials and also upload their own relevant materials."
It sounds like when this is in place it will work for archiving anything and the cost would also go down, its just they used the Grateful Dead As the test run for this system. So the test group could have been anything maybe they should choose fundamental christians in congress next time. Check out elbows post I can't believe the guy actually prayed for that, Crazy like that glue.

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Poster: deadhead53 Date: Dec 22, 2010 1:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

You know all these assholes in Congress, both dems and repubs are the biggest bunch of hypocritical assholes around. There is no difference between either party (spare me the partisan rhetoric please,) they waste money like it is going out of style and put the country in trillions of dollars of debt and don't blink an eye, did they care about earmarks on the first stimulus or now the recent one? But now Tom Coburn is going to fix the problem by getting rid of the dead archive in cali, what an asshole. Let's just have no earmarks, government reform and don't waste taxmoney on any of this stuff unless it is for the Library so people can read and then maybe the country will wake up and vote in some responsible officials who actually care about the people and want government reform. Sorry about the tone, it is not meant for anyone on the site, I am just so sick of how much money this country wastes and it come from both sides of the aisle!

I posted this the other day in regards to a similar post and it applies here, this is just a small, small earmark of probably thousands that go unnoticed and that is the problem! It is time for us to vote in people who care about the country no matter what the party affiliation and are going to take hard look at what we spend and deep cuts are going to be necessary in everything if we really want to get out of this financial mess. The two wars need to be dealt with but only when the last soldier is home. For now, we need to look at our own waste. Government should not be funding artists or musicians who struggle, this may not be popular here but it is the truth, if they are good enough they will succeed and make money, if not they will move on to other areas. We should take that approach to all our services, get rid of the waste! We have to do it with our own household budgets, government should have to do it with theirs and this goes for ALL gov programs, including the pentagon, arts, welfare - all of it and let's get politicians who give a fuck about us, not their own self-serving interests or lobbyists and it does not matter if they are dem or repub because both parties are guilty of this bullshit!

On another note I would like to wish everyone here a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, I hope you all get some quality time with your loved ones!

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Poster: the mark Date: Dec 21, 2010 7:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

I'll bet the boys love this. Nothin' like pissin' off the man. Let's hear it for the Grateful God-damn Dead!

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Poster: advokat Date: Dec 21, 2010 7:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Senator calls university's digital Grateful Dead archive wasteful

ON TO BOHEMIAN GROVE - STICK IT TO THE MAN!!!

What time is Steve Miller's set?